IRC/Gathering-2012-12-09-part1

Attendees: Skud, sabreuse, pixelpapst, Gandalfar, gnattery

sabreuse joined the chat room. [10:59am] Skud: hi sabreuse [10:59am] sabreuse: hiya! [11:00am] Skud: haven't seen you round for a while [11:01am] sabreuse: I've been following the mailing list, but haven't had time to do much beyond that -- I was happy to see this meeting as a chance to catch up and get back into things [11:02am] Skud: :) [11:02am] Skud: except the meeting's in 12 hours time [11:02am] sabreuse: oy [11:02am] Skud: midday UTC, which would be… early morning where you are? [11:02am] Skud: but hey, i'm here! [11:02am] Skud: we can have our own little gathering [11:02am] sabreuse: yep. I transposed pm and am [11:02am] pixelpapst joined the chat room. [11:03am] Skud: there's probably some other north americans around at this time too [11:03am] Skud: o hai pixelpapst [11:03am] sabreuse: put it in my calendar and everything, which is what happens when I try to be organized ;) [11:03am] pixelpapst: hi Skud, hi all [11:03am] Skud: sabreuse: do you know about the calendar miles made? [11:04am] Skud: sabreuse: if you're using google calendar or iCal or most calendar software you should be able to import it [11:04am] sabreuse: excellent. [11:04am] pixelpapst: sorry, reporting in via 3G, so things are flakey :-( [11:04am] Skud: pixelpapst: are you here for the gathering? because if so, it's in 12 hours. we're having a mini " [11:04am] Skud: oops [11:05am] Skud: a mini "oops, got the time wrong" gathering now anyway, though ;) [11:05am] pixelpapst: ah ok [11:06am] pixelpapst: well i should go to sleep soon, have to work early tomorrow [11:06am] pixelpapst: but i'll lurk a bit :) [11:06am] Skud: sorry about the mixup. was there something wrong in the announcements i wonder? [11:06am] Skud: ah yes, there was! [11:06am] Skud: Midnight UTC/UK time [11:06am] Skud: 11am AEDST/Melbourne time [11:06am] Skud: 7pm Saturday EST [11:06am] Skud: 4pm Saturday PST [11:07am] Skud: it's midDAY UTC [11:08am] Skud: *headdesk* [11:08am] pixelpapst: hmmm ... 0:00 utc == 11:00 melbourne == sat. afternoon US passed my sanity check [11:08am] Skud: yes, but it should have been 12:00 UTZC [11:08am] Skud: UTC [11:09am] pixelpapst: ok [11:09am] Skud: the second reminder didn't match the first one. [11:09am] pixelpapst: ahhh k [11:09am] pixelpapst: only really saw that one :) [11:10am] Skud: well i guess we'll have two smaller gatherings? [11:10am] Skud: ah well! [11:10am] Skud: i'm around anyway. [11:10am] sabreuse: same here, I think -- at any rate, it registered as "hey, I might even be online then"! [11:10am] pixelpapst: just everybody should use 24-hour-clocks and UTC :) [11:10am] Skud: anyway, so, HI! [11:10am] Skud: welcome to the gathering! [11:10am] sabreuse: HI! [11:10am] pixelpapst: \o/ [11:11am] gnat1 joined the chat room. [11:11am] pixelpapst: lotsa things new on dev. since i last checked it [11:11am] pixelpapst: you guise have been busy ! :) [11:12am] pixelpapst: nice to see some the activity and even some user traffic [11:12am] Skud: yes it's great :) [11:12am] Skud: i love when i see people spontaneously posting updates [11:12am] Skud: hi gnat! [11:12am] pixelpapst: erm... is there a meeting agenda ? or should i just dump my thoughts ? [11:13am] Skud: no agenda. if you've got things you'd like to talk about, feel free to bring them up whenever. [11:13am] gnat1: hey [11:13am] Gandalfar joined the chat room. [11:13am] Skud: usually early on we sort of say, "does anyone have any topics they'd like to talk about?" and then try to cover them [11:13am] Skud: so… does anyone have any topics they'd like to talk about? [11:14am] gnat1 is now known as gnattery. [11:14am] Skud: at some point i'd like to introduce gnattery and talk a bit about NEIS (which is probably boring as hell to everyone else but i'll try and be quick) [11:14am] pixelpapst: well, i told you about the TOS problems i see [11:15am] Skud: yup. the TOS is very much temporary and won't be in that state for long. [11:15am] Skud: also, we are not subject to german law. [11:15am] Skud: though we would like to have something that's as well fitted to as many cultural contexts as possible [11:15am] pixelpapst: of course, but ATM the consumer has choice of venue :) [11:16am] pixelpapst: jup [11:16am] Skud: pixelpapst: who do you mean by "the consumer"? [11:17am] Skud: because what we have are a handful of people who are using a development website that is not intended for, and not suitable for the general public. if you're using dev.growstuff.org the assumption is that you're involved in the development of growstuff. [11:17am] Skud: which is basically what the TOS is saying. it's under development. the data may not stick around. you should be on the mailing list. watch github. [11:17am] Skud: when we launch the "real" site (on growstuff.org) we will have a proper TOS [11:18am] Skud: as well as a more solid mechanism for informing our actual customers of changes to it [11:18am] Skud: ok? [11:19am] pixelpapst_ joined the chat room. [11:19am] Skud: pixelpapst_: i'm guessing you missed what i just said? [11:19am] pixelpapst_: ya sorry [11:19am] Skud: i'll paste. apologies for the spam. [11:19am] Skud: Skud: pixelpapst: who do you mean by "the consumer"? [11:19am] Skud: [11:17am] Skud: because what we have are a handful of people who are using a development website that is not intended for, and not suitable for the general public. if you're using dev.growstuff.org the assumption is that you're involved in the development of growstuff. [11:19am] Skud: [11:17am] Skud: which is basically what the TOS is saying. it's under development. the data may not stick around. you should be on the mailing list. watch github. [11:19am] Skud: [11:17am] Skud: when we launch the "real" site (on growstuff.org) we will have a proper TOS [11:19am] Skud: [11:18am] Skud: as well as a more solid mechanism for informing our actual customers of changes to it [11:19am] Skud: [11:18am] Skud: ok? [11:20am] pixelpapst left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [11:20am] pixelpapst_: ok [11:20am] pixelpapst_: what i mean is [11:21am] pixelpapst_: it's pretty useless to get consensus for a process to migrate to the final TOS [11:21am] Skud: the final TOS will not be determined by consensus, sorry [11:21am] pixelpapst_: no [11:22am] Skud: the final TOS will be a legal document drafted under australian law [11:22am] Skud: we'll seek input from the GS community, for sure, but in the end its' going to have to be approved by lawyers and all that [11:23am] Skud: but we kind of went down this conversational path pretty quickly… sabreuse, others, did you have topics you want covered? [11:23am] Skud: (sorry, i could rant about TOSes forever. gah. such a tedious and yet necessary thing. hate.) [11:24am] Skud: tansy, (terms of service)-- [11:24am] sabreuse: I'm mostly here to lurk/listen/catch up on where the project is -- no particular questions. So carry on. [11:24am] Skud: tansy? tansy! [11:24am] Skud: oh dear. [11:24am] Skud: how long's she been missing? [11:24am] sabreuse: tansy is the bot, right? [11:25am] pixelpapst__ joined the chat room. [11:25am] Skud: one of, yeah. [11:25am] Tansy joined the chat room. [11:25am] pixelpapst__: damn flakey [11:25am] pixelpapst_ left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [11:25am] Tansy left the chat room. (Client Quit) [11:25am] pixelpapst__: let me paste my last comments [11:25am] Tansy joined the chat room. [11:26am] gnattery: the other bot seems to be missing as well [11:26am] pixelpapst__: and then i'll check in again when I'm behind thernet again [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  the final TOS will not be determined by consensus, sorry [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  no [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  but ATM you are collecting a member's consensus to the current TOS [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  which includes "member must check TOS updates themselves" [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  which will not hold up in court [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  so don't worry about all that, and section 4 [11:26am] Skud: gnattery: espalier actually sits outside and sends notices into the channel, rather than sitting in here. [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  just launch the non-dev site [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  copy over existing users [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  draft a new TOS [11:26am] pixelpapst__:  and re-do the "please agree to it" dance [11:26am] gnattery: ahh [11:26am] Skud: pixelpapst__: we are not collecting member consensus. we are requiring members to agree to the TOS as it stands. [11:27am] Skud: pixelpapst__: i think you misunderstood the email -- i want people to email me "I agree" in lieu of checking the box on the website [11:27am] pixelpapst__: you and i use the word consensus differently [11:27am] Skud: quite possibly. [11:27am] pixelpapst__: you are asking if a persons consents to the current TOS [11:27am] Skud: yes. [11:27am] Skud: if they do not, we cancel their account. [11:28am] pixelpapst__: that doesn't mean that the TOS are created in a consensus-based process [11:28am] pixelpapst__: yup [11:28am] pixelpapst__: that's clear [11:28am] Skud: consent and consensus are completely different words [11:28am] pixelpapst__: what i'm saying is that the TOS section 4 doesn't do what you think it does [11:28am] Skud: ok, what do *you* think it does? [11:28am] pixelpapst__: so please don't bet the company on it, then you're golden :) [11:29am] Skud: there IS no company yet. [11:29am] Skud: i am just trying to inform users of how they can stay informed when the TOS changes. [11:29am] pixelpapst__: it says "users have the option to be notified of TOS changes, by jumping through a lot of hoops and relying on a third party§ incompatible encoding [11:29am] pixelpapst__: ya [11:30am] Skud: yup, that's what i think it says. now what do you think i think it says? [11:30am] Skud: actually, no. [11:31am] Skud: this doesn't seem productive. [11:31am] pixelpapst__: if you had written "we will mail you when the TOS changes, and if you don't object within 6 weeks, we may assume your agreement to the new TOS" - that would hold up [11:31am] pixelpapst__: I'm trying to explain it simply [11:31am] pixelpapst__: IANAL [11:32am] Skud: i think we are talkign at cross-purposes [11:32am] pixelpapst__: but don't rely on that term, because you'll open yourself up to legal liability [11:32am] Skud: this subject is closed, sorry [11:32am] pixelpapst__: erm no [11:32am] pixelpapst__: not ok for me [11:33am] Skud: i don't think it's at all productive to debate a temporary TOS between non-lawyers in different countries [11:33am] pixelpapst__: i don't want to discuss this eternally either [11:33am] Skud: ok, can you please raise it on the mailing list? [11:33am] pixelpapst__: but I wnat you to at least understand where i'm coming from [11:33am] Skud: i just can't do this on IRC in short messages when connections are breaking and all that. [11:33am] pixelpapst__: ok [11:33am] Skud: i think you're saying we should have a fairly watertight, legally defensible TOS right now [11:33am] pixelpapst__: fair enough [11:34am] Skud: we are not in a position to do that at present, because we are not ready to go the whole lawyer route etc [11:34am] pixelpapst__: no, all i'm say is, _when you have it_, redo the "consent dance", and you're on the safe side [11:34am] Skud: YES [11:34am] Skud: WE WILL [11:34am] pixelpapst__: ok [11:34am] Skud: there will be a new TOS when we launch growstuff.org [11:34am] Skud: it will be written by lawyers [11:34am] pixelpapst__: glad to hear is :) [11:34am] pixelpapst__: no need to shout [11:34am] Skud: it will be completely different from the current one [11:34am] Skud: i thought i had said this already? [11:34am] Skud: sorry, i'm getting *very* frustrated [11:35am] pixelpapst__: not to me, no [11:35am] Skud: ok, perhaps your connection had dropped out [11:35am] Skud: Skud: [11:17am] Skud: when we launch the "real" site (on growstuff.org) we will have a proper TOS [11:35am] Skud: [11:19am] Skud: [11:18am] Skud: as well as a more solid mechanism for informing our actual customers of changes to it [11:35am] Skud: i have actually said that 3 times on channel now. [11:35am] pixelpapst__: ok [11:35am] pixelpapst__: sorry aout that [11:36am] Skud: *deep breaths* [11:36am] Skud: sorry for rantiness [11:36am] Skud: i'm also a bit annoyed because i sent the TOS draft to the ML for review and nobody commented [11:36am] pixelpapst__:  let me paste my last comments [11:36am] pixelpapst__:  and then i'll check in again when I'm behind thernet again [11:36am] Skud: like, a month ago [11:36am] pixelpapst__: you kept the topic open :-/ [11:37am] pixelpapst__: but, this brings me to the next question [11:37am] Skud: mmm? [11:38am] pixelpapst__: originally we discussed quick iterations with fast pushes of the status quo to growstuff.org, and "master" being == dev [11:38am] pixelpapst__: is it for legal reasons that this hasn't happened ? or are you planning a "launch event" ? [11:38am] Skud: neither [11:39am] Skud: it's because we don't have a usable website yet. [11:39am] jcaudle joined the chat room. [11:39am] Skud: when it's something that an ordinary food gardener could use, we'll start pushing it to growstuff.org [11:39am] pixelpapst__: ah ok [11:39am] Skud: for anyone who's interested, this is the branching/release system we're using: http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/ [11:40am] Skud: at present we only have things to the left of, and including, the "develop" branch [11:40am] Skud: when we have something that ordinary gardeners (i.e. not people involved in the development of the site) can use, we will start doing the stuff to the right of the "develop" branch [11:41am] Skud: mind you, there may also be a "launch event" :) [11:41am] pixelpapst__: i'd disagree with that, but I don't actually care much either way :) [11:41am] pixelpapst__: ok [11:42am] Skud: hi jcaudle, how goes the Travis CI stuff? [11:42am] pixelpapst__: did anybody else want to discuss something ? otherwise i have an administrative topic ... [11:43am] jcaudle: So far, I've had Travis do 3 builds (none of which have passed) and I'm looking into the best way to get it passing [11:43am] Skud: i'd like to cover CI, and what i mentioned earlier about NEIS & gnattery [11:43am] gnat1 joined the chat room. [11:43am] Skud: Gandalfar: did you have any questions or topics you wanted to discuss? [11:43am] jcaudle: It just isn't doing migrations before running the tests, so I'm curious if we should add `rake db:migrate` to the standard `rake` task [11:44am] Skud: jcaudle: hmmm. don't see why not? [11:44am] jcaudle: Ok, that was my though [11:44am] Gandalfar: Skud, not yet, saw you twit and dropped by to learn more [11:44am] Skud: jcaudle: could you pair with miles on it? [11:44am] jcaudle: *though. I'll see what I can figure out [11:44am] jcaudle: certainly [11:44am] Skud: jcaudle: err, which is to say, pozorvlak [11:44am] Skud: Gandalfar: welcome :) [11:45am] Skud: jcaudle: did you get a chance to put anything on the wiki about Travis? [11:45am] jcaudle: Skud: It doesn't look like he's in here, but I'll get in touch, and yes, there's a very basic page up. [11:45am] Skud: jcaudle: he said he'd be at the noon (his time) gathering -- so 11 hours or so from now. [11:46am] gnattery left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) [11:46am] jcaudle: Skud: http://wiki.growstuff.org/index.php/Travis I'll be adding more as I work through it [11:46am] gnat1 is now known as gnattery. [11:46am] Skud: jcaudle: excellent! thanks for that. [11:46am] gnattery: so, will we need to have two meetings today, to account for the people who aren't here now? [11:46am] jcaudle: Skud: not a problem. I'm enjoying it. [11:47am] Skud: gnattery: yeah, annoyingly :-/ at least, i'm going to plan to be here for both of them, to catch both sets of people. [11:47am] gnattery: that's fine, I can be here for both as well [11:47am] Skud: excellent [11:47am] Skud: now might be a good time to introduce gnattery :) [11:47am] gnattery: haha, hello [11:47am] gnattery: I'm not sure how much Skud has told everyone [11:48am] Skud: nothing much, just that you're a new contributor i guess [11:48am] Skud: plus y'all know about this NEIS program? the govt pays money to previously-unemployed people who start businesses. i was planning to apply for it to run Growstuff. [11:48am] Skud: (since technically i'm unemployed since i left Google… i had to sign up for unemployment benefits to be eligible though) [11:49am] Skud: so gnattery is in a similar situation, and is local to me [11:49am] gnattery: and, since I'm a recent compsci graduate with a lot of time on my hands, I'd be able to work full time on growstuff as well [11:49am] Skud: and we've decided to apply for NEIS together so that we can get 2 x funding for 2 full time people to work on GS [11:49am] pixelpapst__: Skud, my offer to review your paperwork for NEIS still stands btw :) [11:50am] Skud: pixelpapst__: thanks. i think we're good. [11:50am] pixelpapst__: ok, scratch that, if gnattery is local, he's more qualified :) [11:50am] Skud: she. [11:50am] pixelpapst__: sry [11:50am] pixelpapst__: /sexismselfslap [11:51am] gnattery: pixelpapst__: we have people within the NEIS program who are able to help us with things like that as well [11:51am] Skud: so yeah i thought it was worth bringing up sort of formally to introduce gnattery because you'll probably see a LOT of her around the place over the coming months :) [11:51am] sabreuse: welcome, gnattery! [11:51am] gnattery: thanks :) [11:52am] pixelpapst__: as i told you, i'm doing a similar program with some peopl in the EU, so it's always interesting for me to see what you gals come up with [11:52am] Skud: pixelpapst__: what is the business you're running? is it an Internet/web thing? [11:53am] pixelpapst__: yeah, welcome to the project gnattery, glad to have you on board :) [11:53am] pixelpapst__: infrastructure software, but yeah, for now internet/web thing fits pretty well :) [11:53am] Skud: *nod* [11:54am] Skud: ok, 5 mins til the hour… let's not let this one go over, since we have another later in the day [11:54am] Skud: pixelpapst__: you said you had an administrative question? [11:55am] pixelpapst__: well, that was basically it, if I can help with the NEIS stuff [11:56am] Skud: oh, right [11:56am] Skud: i think we're actually pretty solid right now [11:56am] Skud: between having 2 of us, and the school we're going to go with looks REALLY helpful and happy to help us, and we're getting some outside business mentor help [11:56am] pixelpapst__: and to give a head's up, that for my startup a lot of paperwork is coming up (plus i got a good consulting gig ATM), so I'll be too busy for coding the next 1-2 iterations [11:56am] Skud: ok [11:56am] Skud: paperwork is hell [11:57am] pixelpapst__: yeah [11:57am] pixelpapst__: but i'm glad everybody was so successful in the last iterations [11:57am] Skud: well, best of luck with yours [11:57am] Skud: this iteration has been a bit weird… lots of side-tasks and not many points [11:58am] pixelpapst__: and to you, Ma'am ^^ [11:58am] Skud: but it all averages out in the end :) [11:58am] pixelpapst__: yeah but the little details really help the stuff to come together [11:58am] pixelpapst__: even the /member/ thing is an improvement IMHO :) [11:59am] Skud: yeah [12:00pm] Skud: ok, well that's the hour. i'll post the logs etc, and some of us will be back in 11 hours for round 2 /o\ [12:00pm] pixelpapst__: ok [12:01pm] pixelpapst__: thanks everybody [12:01pm] sabreuse: I'm glad someone was here now - my sympathies on the doubled meetings [12:01pm] sabreuse: and thanks [12:01pm] sabreuse: good to meet y'all again [12:01pm] pixelpapst__: good to meet you gnattery [12:01pm] Skud: no worries :) i'm glad i happened to drop in and realise what happened [12:01pm] gnattery: you too, glad to meet you all :)