IRC/Gathering-2012-11-25

  meanwhile i'm doing this horrible thing: http://wiki.growstuff.org/index.php/Skud/NEIS_application  and they ask me "why do you want to start this business"  what sort of question is that? "Fame, fortune, executive company helicopters - you know, the usual" Hmmm. I doubt we could run to helicopters, but maybe we could sell a line of Growstuff branded gardening tools...  "I want to be able to use my skills and experience in the Internet industry to their fullest, in an enterprise which matches my own values."  the form they want you to fill in only gives a couple of lines for each answer. i am boggled by this. how are you meant to answer some of these questions in 2 lines?  anyway i figure that's enough answer for them. That's a pretty good answer  My previous experience in the technology industry, in Australia and internationally, leads me to believe that starting my own business is the best way to achieve this.  I am also, quite simply, excited by the idea of Growstuff and want it to exist. I believe that Growstuff would be useful and beneficial to many people, and an overall social good.  i've had 95% response to the quick survey from the other day, btw  oops 95 people i mean  95 responses. thing. why are words so hard?  30% say they'd pay for GS, median price $25/yr, mean somewhat higher  a few write-ins saying they want seed accounts or to throw money at a crowdfunding effort How many people on the list? We could post the survey to the gardening subreddits  oh no i don't need that many which reminds me, must point Phoebe at all the slug tips.  95 is more than adequate cool Central Limit Theorem FTW :-) <Skud> apparently during the NEIS training they make you write a full business plan etc, and as part of that they make you do market research and survey 100 potential customers Aha, I see <Skud> for the application they really want you to have talked to 3-5 people <Skud> i think my application is more than good now. all we need is a more fleshed out demo. <Skud> sacah: hi!  Hey, misread email as 11pm, just made it (-: hi sacah! o/ Skud's just lost power: should be back in ten minutes or so. oh, bad timing Yeah :-( So, I call this meeting to order!  http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-leader/  anyone know what we're meant to be talking about? :-) Hi Joseph! <jcaudle_> Hi Miles! Skud's power's gone out, but she should be with us in ten minutes or so sacah's about, not sure who else sacah: I don't think we've met, hi! <jcaudle_> sounds good <jcaudle_> Hi sacah! Hi, just holding my 9 wk old, but one hand typing (-: Hi Skud! That was a short power cut <Skud> phew. yeah. <Skud> fuckers. <Skud> showed up at the door, "hi we're turning your power off", blam. <Skud> housemate didn't think to check whether i might be DOING ANYTHING  >:( <Skud> 30 seconds notice would have been nice, just to tell y'all terrible <Skud> ok, well <Skud> pozorvlak: did you kick things off? are you logging? sacah: are you https://twitter.com/sacahnet Skud: yep Yep <Skud> awesome :) I don't tweet much  So I see :-) I tweet far too much <DZR__> Hello :) Hi DZR__ <Skud> sacah: another australian i see. welcome! <Skud> so this is great. we haven't had this many people at the irc gathering before. i see my guilt-trip email worked ;) Yep, in Sydney. sacah: also https://bitbucket.org/sacah ? yep, can pretty much say all 'sacah' are me, it's a fairly unique nickname (-: <Skud> so as usual there's no particular agenda, but if anyone has any questions or things they want to talk about feel free to just go for it hi harrylynes! <Skud> i'd like to talk "minimal viable demo" / funding application if anyone's interested  sacah: eeeexcellent  Skud: sounds good <Skud> harrylynes: hi!  Hello pozorvlak and all!  Funding application: http://wiki.growstuff.org/index.php/Skud/NEIS_application  Looks like a world of pain  I'm an oobernoob, so apols if I seem a little vague or slow <Skud> pozorvlak: yup, with the caveat that it's very much a draft and i need to tweak stuff <Skud> harrylynes: no worries, we <3 the noobs  Skud: I was also curious about the coaching emails. I figured pozorvlak was more qualified for this round, as he's been involved, but I may be interested in that later <Skud> so yeah just to bring others up to speed… there's this govt program here in australia to help small businesses. it involves a 6 week training course, mentoring, and paying me the equivalent of unemployment benefits while i work on my thing. i figured it was worth trying to get on that program with Growstuff. <Skud> jcaudle: ooh awesome! *makes mental note* <Skud> so anyway, applications for this program (which is called NEIS, New Enterprise Incentive Scheme) are due in a couple of weeks, so i'm pushing to get a bunch of stuff done by then. Skud: so the advantage over unemployment benefits is that they don't hassle you to get a job? <Skud> pozorvlak: exactly :) plus the training and mentoring.  Plus training  Skud: aha, makes sense  They have some good mentors with business and marketing too <Skud> it's not a whole lot of money, but the training and mentoring are apparently pretty good, and i wouldn't turn down any money to be honest <Skud> especially since i'm not really interested in VC type setups, which are almost all the other options <Skud> it's worth about $1000 a month for 15 months <Skud> which is about 50% of my living expenses. <Skud> i have savings to cover the rest. <Skud> anyway i just wanted to wave everyone at that application draft (http://wiki.growstuff.org/index.php/Skud/NEIS_application) and say that if you like reading that sort of thing, go for it, and i'd appreciate feedback <Skud> and that i'm really keen to have the MVD features finished ASAP (which is basically "planting" at this point) so that i can show them as part of my NEIS application From a quick look at your NEIS application draft, I would say your application will be succesful. Application is to-the-point, and you have a dev site. I would hazard a guess that the "average" public servant would think you're looking pretty good. Maybe rather than rush any dev site progress for the NEIS application, do some static layouts of dev site "next phase" options, which you can use as part of your NEIS application and a basis <Skud> harrylynes: the reason for the dev site is that they won't fund "speculative" ventures, and if you're developing a product out of thin air, they want to see that you already have something, at least a minimal sort of product, to go to market with. Yeah, it definitely gives off an "I have my shit together and know what I'm doing" vibe. Then again, I have zero experience with this kind of application <Skud> i've talked with a gaming company who were on NEIS, and they put together a simple game at application time, which they could in theory sell even thugh it was kinda crap Good evening everyone <Skud> i'm actually not too worried about the application form stuff. i'll be compared with unemployed wannabe small business owners, not Harvard MBAs. <Skud> i should say, "other unemployed wannabe small business owners" ;) <Skud> my biggest risk is that they don't think i have a product or that growstuff is too speculative. In that case the dev site would have to be gussied up I'd say. Logo, crop pics, styling, integration. At a minimum you *could* say that the "product" is advertising. (Yuck, but it's better than no product).  Hi thejaymo. <Skud> anyway! i guess that's all i wanted to say on that. if i seem a bit frazzled or stressed over the next couple of weeks, that's why. <Skud> harrylynes: yeah, crop pics is a biggie to be honest.  harrylynes: as terrible as "the product is the advertising" is, I think that's what Skud should go with...  thejaymo: hi! <Skud> i'm really tempted to add a field for "WIkimedia commons image" and go through and add some  Hi thejaymo! <Skud> any thoughts on that?  Rather than say product. Can you not approach garden centers for sponsorship? <DZR__> Skud - think the business plan will blow them away!! or even biggest seep packet manufacturers? *seed <DZR__> Hello thejaymo <Skud> ok so re: advertising/sponsorship WM commons images sounds like a plan <Skud> i am *very* cautious about doing so, because that then puts the needs of the advertisers/ sponsors at odds with those of the members <Skud> the result is that we end up building features for sponsors not members, and that sucks for everyone except those sponsors <Skud> one of my real goals is to align the revenue with the people we're serving, so we don't have those conflicts <Skud> does that make sense? targetted advertising can benefit both parties though remember. Yeah I agree. Ah... pozorvlak=Miles! harrylynes=Larry Hynes - the slug guy ;-) I'd agree with sacah, I wouldn't rule out finding friendly sponsors...  harrylynes: aha! Thanks again for the slug tips :-) <Skud> sacah: yes, but targeting closely enough means building your own ad system (as for example rav has) <Skud> rav = ravelry.com You can also have dual model, so member subs which remove advertising, and freemium suported by a form of advertising I think Ravelry do a great job at aligning their community with relevant commerce. Getting into bed with the devil but keeping one's pyjamas on. Skud: it does make sense harrylynes: an arresting image :-) <Skud> building a sufficiently targeted ad system (i.e. food gardening only) means spending a lot of time on building the ad system <Skud> rather than building features for food gardeners yeah fo sure.  this is just for the application, you can just build a sub system for the time being, and look at the other model later  sacah: yeah, that's what LJ does  Very good point, Skud... <Skud> ok so let me talk about the survey <Skud> i ran a survey over the last few days to see whether people would pay for memberships, whether the benefits are in the form of advanced features <Skud> eg. being able to have multiple gardens, manage shared/community gardens, do more advanced searches, that sort of thing <Skud> i got 95 responses <Skud> 30% keen food gardeners, 50% half-assed, 20% would liek to but aren't currently <Skud> when i described the site 60% said "heck yeah, where do i sign up?" and 37% said "maybe, it depends" to whether they'd be interested <Skud> when i asked if they'd pay for it, 69% said they'd stick with a free account, 31% said they'd pay <Skud> of the payers, i asked them in a freeform textbox how much they'd pay annually in USD. median response was $25, mean was around $28. <Skud> i got a few write-ins saying they'd pay for "seed" or "lifetime" accounts or contribute to a crowdfunding effort with more money. Skud: 69/31 is a great distribution... <Skud> yeah well it's a lot easier to get someone to say they'd pay, than to get them to actually do it true <Skud> anyway. this gives me a LOT of confidence about the freemium model. people seem really keen. <Skud> and it's way easier to implement than a targeted ad system it is, and why I suggest you do that first, but when rubber mets the road, very few people pay unless you have great benefits. I myself always go for advertising supported than actually pay. So I think you shouldn't rule out planning for where and how a targetted system will fit in, so down the road you have the option. <Skud> so that's the basis of the plan <Skud> sacah: advertising, if any, will be community-based (i.e. by members and to members), more like classifieds than banner ads. <Skud> sacah: this is non-negotiable, because i do not want to work on an ad-supported site. Until you have the numbers, classifieds won't work too. Ok <Skud> sacah: until we have the numbers, ads of any kind won't work. Do we have a minimum go live feature list ? <Skud> sacah: anyway, if you (or any particular member) doesn't want to pay for an account, that's ok. we only need 3%. <Skud> jimmyjaymo: i'm working on that! http://wiki.growstuff.org/index.php/Minimal_Viable_Product <Skud> i figure that list is the thing to aim for before we invite random members of the public to try it out <Skud> as opposed to people who are really into the development process :) If it's closed, no point discussing it, so I'll just leave it. <Skud> sacah: thanks, don't mean to seem abrupt, but i honestly wouldn't want to work on a site with that business model  Cool  Gah am on my phone. Connection keeps dropping <Skud> i feel like i've been talking lots. why don't you all say what you think should be in the minimal viable product list.  Suggest you use the "stuff" thing more as you develop. "Crops" does not really describe what I grow. (Small beds in a tunnel with onion, garlic, leek, tomatoes, herbs, etc). Stuff does somehow. I'd like to see a "My stuff" "Stuff I grew" "Other people's stuff" "Shed stuff" "Pest stuff" type of thing. <Skud> or i guess more broadly, what the MVP should emcompass <Skud> encompass  Wouldn't you rename your crops object to suit what it is to you?  Also suggest (with the static layouts again, already!) you *draw* some MVP stuff, as opposed to *write* it. Like, do some layouts. <Skud> that would require drawing skill ;) I love Growstuff, the name. 'Cos it's exactly what I do. And then when i go in and see "Crops", I get frightened, like it's for farmers or industry.  I think we should have at least a calendar function to imput the date when you planted stuff  lots of free wireframing tools out there, really helps develpoment to have some ideas what your heading toward.  No, it would require a pen and paper. :-p  and you can have a gant chart showing when things would be ready  jimmyjaymo: That's a great idea! <Skud> jimmyjaymo: definitely want a widget for that when you plant things, yeah, and maybe a calendar or timeline view of your stuff  ew, he said gantt  I'm happy to explore partnering with someone on layouts, that's my thing. (Graphic design, 25+ years)  next iterations would be reminders for watering etc <Skud> harrylynes: YES PLEASE. <Skud> harrylynes: let's talk! harrylynes: are you UX focused, or primarily design? I've used an ok jQuery date picker that's worked in the past, but might not be extensible enough skud: re wireframing, I notice that http://www.balsamiq.com/ is gratis for open-source projects jimmyjaymo: like it! <Skud> sure, there are lots of free wireframing tools/pen and paper/etc, but it's not really how i think about functionality so i find it really difficult to work that way. would love to pair with someone who's more visual. <Skud> my only real ability to do mockups/UIs is to rough them into place in HTML (as we've done for the crops page for example). anything else i get all frozen and stuck. Then way into the future, we can pull the weather from open weather data Design, but with large helpings of common sense. Just returning to work after a 3-year "removing my head from my overstressed ass" break. larryhynes.com, though there ain't a whole lot there yet. and adjust the watering dates accordingly <Skud> jimmyjaymo: i'd be *really* wary of that. open weather data can be really unreliable and inaccurate. i wouldn't trust my garden to it. <Skud> jimmyjaymo: the standard open weather data source that all the weather sites use is *crap* for australia. Really? That's crap. It's pretty good for London UK :p Skud: wireframing isn't about visuals, it's about how the functionality will work and flow. are there any good international sources for weather data? Skud: no problem, very happy to talk that out with you. I know of a few good ones for the US…but they are explicitly not international right now <Skud> sacah: and i find that easiest to express through mocking up HTML, rather than using a wireframing tool. And weather data is actually big business, no free sources that are decent <Tansy> 'DATA IS ACTUALLY BIG BUSINESS, NO FREE SOURCES THAT ARE DECENT' doesn't look like a valid ICAO airport identifier. wonder if we could partner with an open source aduino wether station project <Skud> tansy-- <Tansy> Skud: what? and do your own weather <Skud> heh, that would be further down the line, but it's a fun idea :) jimmyjaymo: That would be a really cool side feature <Skud> it wouldn't do forecasting though <Skud> anyway! wireframing!  Veeeery simple layout tool: http://fatiherikli.github.com/mockup-designer/#document/cda60592-73cb-eeea-22c5-dc529ef1902d <Skud> or mockups in general <Skud> harrylynes: i would like to pair with you on this, if you're up for it.  Tansy, you are also adorable <Tansy> okay, pozorvlak.  Skud: perhaps a "crowdsourced" weather data system could be a possible "pivot" ;-) Awesome, so we have an actual task :-) How far do you expect we might deviate from the Bootstrap standards? <Skud> jcaudle: in what sense?  One of my climbing partners does weather forecasting for http://www.ecmwf.int/  I asked him "what would make a real difference to your work?"  Well, one of the things about bootstrap is that it's rather opinionated about design  he said "being able to invert billion-row matrices"  jcaudle: we're just talking wireframes, not design at this point  Re Bootstrap, I'm actually happier in Foundation. But no worries! :-) sacah: thanks. I can get off topic easily harrylynes: as am I <Skud> harrylynes: we tried foundation for months, and kept banging our heads against it. it just didn't work. bootstrap worked out of the box. <Skud> nobody was able to offer any suggestions of how to get it to WORK Skud: that's one of the biggest benefits to Bootstrap <Skud> random chunks of it were just missing or inaccessible or came out looking like vomit, for no apparent reason I'm the other way 'round! Lol. My new site is built on Foundation with Jekyll, but digging into Bootstrap is not a problem. <Skud> there was no support channel i could find. <Skud> every time i asked on twitter, the foundation people didn't respond and everyone else just said "well it works for me" <Skud> so, i ditched it. and now we have a site that doesn't look like a kindergarten project. <Skud> it looks like a ycombinator project ;) <Skud> (no, i don't consider that a good thing) Heh. <Skud> and so jcaudle to answer your question -- i would be *very* happy to customise bootstrap almost out of recognisability  Awesome  it has a few dependencies you have to get right. I can bring bits from each, but if harrylynes can design, down the line, once wireframes are good, I can implement a custom design he makes  I must say, overnight it became something really cool  that's kind of the point of it being called "bootstrap" but a lot of y-combinator types don't keep that in mind... <Skud> i'd definitely like something that has a more organic feel to it  How do we feel about community data validation? <Skud> earthy and human  Aside from the crop wranglers  Skud: sure, let's try some baby-steps and see how we get along. <Skud> jimmyjaymo: give me an example?  I'm working on a project that is possibly going to use some of bootstrap to start, just to get going, but work toward a more rough hewn design, so I'd be happy to keep in touch on this Skud. <Skud> i like "rough hewn" as an adjective :) I like it better when it's rough-hewn. ;-) Skud: also, I like the organic style of development Growstuff seems to be taking. :-) example. Person takes a picture of what that planted. "this is the shit I just planted" the image goes in to a queue for all to see and the community click YES that is a picture of the shit they planted <Skud> jimmyjaymo: i have no strong feelings either way on that sort of thing, except that it can be a huge development effort (see also: freebase)  Or NO its a picture of a garden knome <Skud> how about something where people can just click a <3 button or something, and the most <3'd things filter to the top  true. But it gives community control over its data validity  jimmyjaymo: this sounds like a huge effort <Skud> jimmyjaymo: on the whole i would prefer not to "validate" but to "aggregate" <Skud> here's an example  Skud: up voting is a great way to filter things <Skud> let's say we want data on whether to plant chard in full sun, semi shade, or full shade <Skud> we have a few options <Skud> 1) import this data from a reliable, compatibly licensed source. oh wait, there aren't any. plus that means a heap of validation and complication. <Skud> 2) let the community edit the "Chard" object and come to some kind of consensus <Skud> or 3) let every individual talk about *their* chard. "i planted my chard in semi-shade. after 2 months i harvested it. five stars!" <Skud> hundreds of people plant chard. of those we find that 70% plant in sun, 30% in semi-shade, none in full shade I like the sound of 3) <Skud> from this we can aggregate and put something on the crops page: "Planting: full sun (details)" click on details and see the breakdown <Skud> also you can localise <Skud> because chard grows in full sun in most places, but in the australian summer it might fry, so semi shade is best: "In your area: semi-shade (details)" <Skud> now, at no point has anyone had to validate anyone else's data. Side note that is applicable to this discussion, is this site limited to 18+ people registering? sacah: don't see why it should be <Skud> sacah: quick answer: no. longer answer: any age restrictions will be subject to australian law, which i don't think has anything that should restrict us. <Skud> COPPA doesn't apply here, for instance. though we might want to informally do something similar. Then I think by law, given this is a business, you have to do what you can to protect minors, so you'd need to have a report button at the least to remove uploaded images and data. <Skud> yup. <Skud> but we need that for DMCA anyway <Skud> or copyright i should say Isn't this what thejaymo was talking about, not validating peoples actual data, but images? I would imagine limiting to 18+ by default to begin might be wise / reduce potential hassles, with open option to expand when ready. <Skud> not to mention potential harassment etc. so the simplest thing that could possibly work would be a "report abuse" form. <Skud> harrylynes: i'll consult with the people at the business training thingy about that :) since they offer free advice/mentoring/etc. <Skud> i would be loath to restrict access to a useful resource Will be good for funding also to include benefits to schools using this, the gov loves that, and if it can promot healthy eating, they throw money at that stuff. But means no 18+ <Skud> ooh yeah.  sacah: +1 <Tansy> 1 <Skud> anyway we have a policy of inclusivity. wouldn't want to restrict access just for the hell of it. <Skud> i should make a note about age on the inclusivity wiki page.  I suppose there won't be a forum for people like me who go to their polytunnels to avoid their child then. OK, that's fine. :-) hehe harrylynes: there may be an equal and opposite forum for those who go to their gardens to avoid their parents :-) Lol! <Skud> harrylynes: you can have a forum for that!  They go to discos for that sort of thing.  Does anyone still call them "discos"?  :-) woah, how old are you, discos d-: :-) That was my "dad voice" <Skud> oh god our Transition group was talking about having a fundraising disco <Skud> i was like…  harrylynes: lol  if things have finished, can I switch back to funding?  sacah: go for it  Ahem. Yes ma'am.  Have you looked into the crowdfunding, eg Kickstarter type things?  I notice a few references to crowdfunding in the NEIS application  This would give you the money up front if you could get the links out to the right people, plus the government has a program, not sure what they call it now, where they will match any amount you are putting into a project, upto $50k and still give you mentoring <Skud> here's what i've put on the wiki re: under 18s fwiw <Skud> There has been some discussion about whether people under 18 would be allowed to sign up. Our policy is to be as inclusive/welcoming as is possible under law. The relevant law in this case would be Australian law (AFAIK), and I am not aware of anything that would require us to restrict signups to adults only. However, we will seek legal advice on this. <Skud> If possible, I would like our site's infrastructure and the community guidelines that apply to everyone to provide a high level of security/privacy for all our members, and for us to be highly responsive to abuse/misuse, so that we don't need to special-case minors. i really want to stay and chat. but i need to shoot. am at a thanks giving party on a friends laptop <Skud> thejaymo: thanks for stopping by! thejaymo: haha, go be social thejaymo: that's dedication! <Skud> sacah: yes, i hope to do an initial crowdfunding round. details not yet fleshed out. thejaymo: see ya! np. i think we should have a e-mail thread about mvp <Skud> sacah: if you have details on this govt program i would love to hear about it! byeee! thejaymo: l8r! Have fun! +1 on email thread brb <Skud> sacah: dreamwidth (one of the projects closely associated with GS) did a crowdfunding round through "seed" accounts, which gave the funders lifetime membership. i like that model because it means you don't have to mess around with rewards like tshirts and stuff. <Skud> sacah: there have already been a number of people who've said they would be interested in buying seed accounts if we do it I'll do a search, companies I've been with have used them a few times, I think they were at state level, and there was a guy who'd come out and discuss it with you before you applied, and help you with the application. <Skud> sacah: thanks. if it's state based (NSW) then it might not help me. i've searched pretty extensively in Vic and not found anything. Skud: no, it's in every state, but the funds are on a state level <Skud> ahh Skud: do you have a link for the "seed" funding round on dream width? I'd love to learn more... Yes, I don't like physical rewards I might toddle off myself, it's 1.10am here. I should be here again for the chat on Sunday 9th. Anyone wanting to follow up from this chat pls email me at hello@larryhynes.com Nice meeting you all. :-) <Skud> jcaudle: hmmm not sure if i can find a single link easily Lifetime membership, and not sure if it would work for gardeners, but all the KS for games have a higher tier for ppl who want beta access, limited dedicated people who give feedback and testing <Skud> harrylynes: thank you! i will definitley be in touch.  harrylynes: bye  harrylynes: bye!  Skud: no problem, I can search around <Skud> jcaudle: i can give you a quick rundown though  harrylynes: bye!  Skud: that would be great <Skud> jcaudle: their usual account price is $25/year.  they had 200 seed accounts available at $200 each: http://dw-news.dreamwidth.org/5035.html <Skud> these gave you lifetime membership at the "premium" level which is actually $35/year now i think of it <Skud> sorry, 400 accounts at $200 <Skud> = $80,000  how many devs did they have at that stage?  That's a great idea! <Skud> this provided them with a buffer of operating funds <Skud> a couple of years later, they had a very bad patch when a bunch of griefers repeatedly took out their payment system or did it all go on operating costs? <Skud> all on operating costs cool <Skud> they currently only have 2 paid staff -- denise and afuna -- plus contractors/retainers <Skud> they have sysadmins on retainer <Skud> anyway as i said, they had a very bad patch where they experienced denial of service on their payment system for months, so they released another batch of seed accounts after that <Skud> they have always been very serious about not having seed accounts available all the time, because people buying them cannibalises their recurring revenue stream <Skud> they ended up selling another 400 seed accounts 2 years later. you can read about it here: http://dw-news.dreamwidth.org/29033.html That's certainly true, but it also gives them some very devoted customers who will likely inform others of the service That said, you can't always be sowing seeds... <Skud> yes. <Skud> so i'd like to do something similar, but have probably two levels <Skud> something like $200 and $500 <Skud> not sure what $500 would get you, maybe just your name listed under "gold supporters" or something Do we have a worked out gradation of features yet? <Skud> no, not yet. <Skud> i've been meaning to start a wiki page. let me do that. that would be great Do you know enough circles to get attention to a crowdfunding idea? Just looking at how folia handles companion planting: http://myfolia.com/plants/10-tomato-solanum-lycopersicum <Skud> http://wiki.growstuff.org/index.php/Paid_features two types of edges: "X loves Y" and "X hates Y" <Skud> sacah: i think so. i got 100 responses to an off-the-cuff quick survey the other day, and raised $20k for the last online fundraising effort i was involved in (of $100k total raised) <Skud> sacah: there are actually a couple of overlapping circles here… there are the gardeners, and the open source types, and probably others If you have the numbers, you can do well with small tiers of cosmetic rewards, so $10 and you get a badge on the forum and your user page, etc. The really works if you have the numbers. Plus doesn't stop ongoing payments <Skud> yup there are lots of options <Skud> in my NEIS application i only really talk about the $25/year thing but i think there are a few other things we should consider <Skud> at the very least, two levels of membership where the higher one gets you a badge <Skud> or just a warm glowy feeling <Skud> so that those who want to pay $50/year can :) <Skud> i think once we get the "trade" part of the site up and running there will be some good options there too wow, folia does look pretty dead  ppl love to show they contributed, need a badge <Skud> for instance, $5 gets you a picture with your ad <Skud> or the ability to target your ad more closely to people in your area/country/whatever  $5 is pretty high for a classified ad?  Oh, just ideas, not actual numbers (-: <Skud> well i'm just pulling a number out of my butt <Skud> but fwiw i was looking at Earth Garden the other day, and their ads are $1.20/word, and $30 for a picture <Skud> (that's an australian hippie gardening/homesteading magazine, for those not in .au) on going or selling 1 item? <Skud> one time. <Skud> their circulation is only 18,000 no, the ads, are they selling 1 item, eg I want to sell a shovel, or are they selling 100 shovels to 100 people etc? <Skud> usually either small businesses, or people selling land/houses <Skud> http://www.earthgarden.com.au/unclassifieds.html <Skud> http://www.earthgarden.com.au/landlines.html <Skud> but i'm not saying everyone would have to pay $5 to post an ad <Skud> anyone could post something in the "trade" section for free <Skud> but you could pay to make your ad stand out more. which would be a good idea for people who are selling 100 shovels, or $500 training courses, or $300,000 organic hobby farms ah, cool, yer, when I hear classifieds I think Trading Post kind, where I would list my shovel for sale (-: But if it's a small business, I understand the cost now <Skud> i think more likely would be, "Allotment spaces available" or "Permaculture course" or "Wanted: apples for cider making"  cool <Skud> or at the bottom end, "5 tomato seedlings free to a good home"  Have tiers based on how much it's selling for? <Skud> maybe. <Skud> we're not really planning to broker those transactions though (for now)  I did the funding up in Qld, but this looks live Vics version of the department we dealt with http://www.business.vic.gov.au/grants-and-assistance  no, but they enter price as one of the fields, to let people search and sort, so you know what range the ad is in. <Skud> Technology Implementation Voucher <Skud> Businesses can apply for a maximum of $250,000 under the Technology Implementation Voucher. This voucher can be used to undertake substantial testing or applied development activities to adapt existing technology-based innovations into new practice, industries or markets in conjunction with a technology service provider. If you give them a ring, you may need an ABN, which is free, and then they should be able to take you through what programs suit you <Skud> yeah <Skud> right now i'm focusing on the NEIS application but this is def worth looking into straight after that. Most state govs have a lot of different programs, so it's worth ringing (-: Skud: any commentary on coaching? <Skud> jcaudle: in what particular sense? <Skud> http://www.business.vic.gov.au/grants-and-assistance/commercialisation-australia also looks promising (noting it for the logs) <Skud> Early Stage Commercialisation grants of $50,000 to $2 million to develop a new product, process or service to the stage where it can be taken to market. This funding is provided on a 50:50 matching basis.  Yes, we used that one in Qld once  I'm gonna have to crash out soon  I can't stress enough though, ring and talk to someone, we had the guy help us get great grants that reading the webpage didn't seem to suit us, but he;s like yer, just put this in your application and it's now applicable.  can someone take over logging duties? <Skud> *nod* <Skud> pozorvlak: i've got it.  Skud: cool  Skud: just curious if there's anything specific about coaching outside of the wiki page <Skud> pozorvlak: if you could email the early parts or better yet stick them on the wiki that would be great Skud: will do pozorvlak: night pozorvlak: later <Skud> jcaudle: i don't really know how to answer that. i mean i could give you all kinds of finicky detail but i'm not sure that's what you eant. </tt> [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:43:08] well, I am kind of a detail person, so that's fine with me... [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:43:08] <Skud> jcaudle: the wiki page covers most of what's involved. it's mostly the emails i regularly send ("welcome to iteration blah", "pencils down", etc) and making sure people are paired up and know what they're working on [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:43:16] <Skud> and just generally being around to answer questions or point people in the right direction [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:43:45] <Skud> think of it as… if i wound up with no internet for an iteration, it's the stuff that would keep the project moving ahead [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:44:24] cool [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:44:44] well, I think I'm going to duck out as well [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:44:49] <Skud> i think you'd be able to do it, for what it's worth [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:44:54] ok [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:45:01] I'd like to pair on an iteration first [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:45:04] <Skud> maybe we'll let miles take this one and you could keep it in mind for a later iteration? maybe after we've paired on something [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:45:05] <Skud> yes [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:45:14] <Skud> let's do the controller security this iteration if iwe can [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:45:35] I was looking into that a bit [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:45:42] and would be happy to work on it [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:46:09] <Skud> cool [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:46:14] <Skud> i actually have to dash off too [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:46:23] <Skud> shall we call this gathering closed, and talk later? [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:46:40] sounds good to me [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:46:54] have a nice Sunday! [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:47:15] <Skud> you too! [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:48:20] thanks! [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:48:36] <Skud> thanks everyone for "attending", including the lurkers :) [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:49:35] Skud: :) [Sunday 25 November 2012] [01:50:26] Sorry guys, baby woke up, see you guys later
 * sacah (7ca82917@gateway/web/freenode/ip.124.168.41.23) has joined #growstuff
 * Skud has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 * jcaudle_ (~jcaudle@184.17.176.150) has joined #growstuff
 * Skud (~Skud@60-241-81-171.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #growstuff
 * jcaudle is now known as Guest80428
 * Guest80428 has quit (Killed (gibson.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
 * jcaudle_ is now known as jcaudle
 * pozorvlak follows
 * harrylynes (~harrylyne@92.251.164.41.threembb.ie) has joined #growstuff
 * thejaymo (~thejaymo@cpc12-nmal17-2-0-cust493.croy.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #growstuff
 * thejaymo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 * jimmyjaymo (~thejaymo@212.183.128.239) has joined #growstuff
 * jimmyjaymo has quit (Quit: Bye)
 * jayspringett (~jayspring@02dea201.bb.sky.com) has joined #growstuff
 * jayspringett has quit (Client Quit)
 * jayspringett (~thejaymo@02dea201.bb.sky.com) has joined #growstuff
 * jayspringett is now known as thejaymo
 * thejaymo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 * harrylynes has quit (Quit: Bye!)